Comments on Jonalyn Grace Fincher: Are Women Natural Lovers?

Casey,Thank you for noting this in your own marria...

2008-07-02T10:15:00.000-07:00

Casey,
Thank you for noting this in your own marriage and experience. I'm glad these words are bringing more freedom to be uniquely female, a unique wife the one your husband wanted to be with.

"Love is open-faced and open-hearted, it only rejo...

2008-07-02T08:36:00.000-07:00

"Love is open-faced and open-hearted, it only rejoices in the truth, refusing to passive-aggressively steer men behind the scenes."

This is a powerful statement. This post really resonated with me. I found myself trying to do all the traditional wifely things I had been told to do by well-meaning Christians after my husband and I married. And kept realizing it wasn't the woman my husband desired. He desired me, my friendship, my thoughts, for me to feel fulfilled. And I was so caught up in legalistically managing him and tryign to be the right kind of wife and do what all the right books said. Great insights. You're definitely on to something here. There isn't one easy answer, marriage is complicated, messy and not formulaic.

Madame- a great question.No, I do not believe the ...

2008-06-29T20:31:00.000-07:00

Madame- a great question.
No, I do not believe the Bible teaches that men are given a 51% tie breaking vote in any decision, not spiritual, not financial, not parental, not in anything. I believe God grants each person in a marriage both the intelligence, ability and concern to offer different weights with each decision--some decisions the man will have more, others the woman more.

" Submission is not an event following a disagreem...

2008-06-29T15:40:00.000-07:00

" Submission is not an event following a disagreement when my husband uses his 51% vote to break the stalemate. Submission, according to Paul, is a life-long orientation towards all people I love, my husband topping the list. It’s a command for all women and all men, a major theme of the good life in Christ threaded throughout Scripture."

Jonalyn,
I agree with you. But want to ask a question,
Do you believe that husbands have a 51% vote to break stalemates?
Do you believe the Bible teaches that?

Madame- thanks for these encouraging words!

2008-06-28T08:10:00.000-07:00

Madame- thanks for these encouraging words!

Jonalyn,that was a great article. I enjoyed it.Eph...

2008-06-28T06:13:00.000-07:00

Jonalyn,
that was a great article. I enjoyed it.

Ephesians 5 21-33 has been exploited, I think. I struggle with it being preached at weddings now! It just sounds like a dry list of rules, always dressed up with whatever bias the preacher holds, and it's guaranteed to make me squirm in my seat. At the last wedding I went to, the preacher said "the husband is the savior of the wife, in a sense...."

Paul instructed wives to respect and husbands to love in that passage. Peter instructed husbands to treat their wives with respect, otherwise their prayers may be hindered (1Peter 3), and Paul told older women to teach younger women to love their husbands. (Titus2)

As you said, love needs respect. You can't love without respecting, but you can respect without loving.

Submission (or obedience!) without loving can lead to pitfalls. A husband can be heading down the wrong road. If his wife loves him enough, she can put herself in a difficult position and tell him what she sees. He might feel very much like she is being insubmissive and disobedient, but she is doing the greater thing: she is loving him. (I think about Abigail).

Marriage is too complex for manuals. I've come to that conclusion after just 5.5 years. We can turn the Bible into a "manual of sorts", laying down the letter as the way we should live, but if we forget love and the leading of the Spirit, we will probably crash.

Thanks for a good reminder of the better way. 1 Corinthians 13.

i think so...a woman with a great experience and w...

2008-06-25T09:39:00.000-07:00

i think so...a woman with a great experience and wonderfull thinking should be a true lovers

Layrab,Glad this blog gave your more to think abou...

2008-06-21T09:01:00.000-07:00

Layrab,

Glad this blog gave your more to think about. What a challenge and a good example for us to think about: the way women love and respect their man when he is away so much (as in your case with him being in the Marin Corps). Our theory of gender and marriage must take cases like yours into account, for you are one of many.

Have you read Ruby Slippers? I think you'd find more freedom for women in it's pages as that is why I began writing in the first place.

Jonalyn,I'm a regular reader of your blog and it a...

2008-06-17T22:26:00.000-07:00

Jonalyn,
I'm a regular reader of your blog and it always encourages me to think rather than believe. Belief is our foundation, but we cannot leave it at belief...women and men need to think about who God is, what he is teaching, and how specifically it applies to our lives NOT because some famous speaker told us how.
That being said, I want to thank you for this blog in particular. I have always struggled with the submissive role of the wife. Wifey stays home, wifey cooks, wifey puts her life on hold for the man. It's beautiful and holy to realize how equal God made us and how he didn't assign me a role in my marriage. Mutual Love and Respect are key. My husband and I have been married for 2 years and have been together for 5 months of those 2 years due to his deployments with the US Marine Corps. I have struggle understanding how to relinquish my household authority role and become the good Christian wifey at his return. Fortunately, I have a husband who does not focus on my jobs or my responsibilities in the house, however, I somehow got in my brainwashed mind that the wife does xy and z while the husband, well, doesn't. Your thoughts on love and roles have blessed me in my preparation for his imminent return. Thank you and keep 'em coming!

What I'm saying in the comparison is simply that t...

2008-06-17T16:07:00.000-07:00

What I'm saying in the comparison is simply that the model of marriage is as created by God as creation itself. Modeled in the image of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. To define marriage is to start at creation of man, not to take what we have now and push our own meanings backward.

To your question...the first marriage wasn't a sort of Trinity, I'm saying that it is modeled from the Trinity.

Good timing on this as well, don't you think? If society would realize that marriage isn't something man created, then maybe man and laws would quit messing it up. Hey California...ya listening?

Anonymous- yes, I prefer to commit our work to God...

2008-06-17T08:12:00.000-07:00

Anonymous- yes, I prefer to commit our work to God rather than compare our commitment to marriage to our commitment to the person. Also, I feel that our commitment to marriage can become a legalistic duty (robbed of joy and enchantment) when we forget we are working towards knowing another person (Marriage, like all love relationships is best described as a cycle of stages from enchantment--disenchantment--reenchantment.

Paul- I do think you were being a bit of a stickler (triplet/quintuplet) on the comparison Anonymous was making. I believe Anonymous was pointing out (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Trinity provides the example of how we work to become one, one in purpose, one in love, etc. The idea of putting God first is, I grant you, rather confusing as to what Anonymous meant. I suppose perhaps just that God has priority to my life over my spouse...

Anonymous- I am confused as to the example you gave about the garden. Are you saying that God and Adam and Eve made a sort of Trinity of marriage? I do see that both husband and wife are compared to different members of the Trinity by the verses you gave, however I don't think it's a one for one comparison. In other words both husband and wife work with each person of the Trinity both individually and as a couple. Is that what you are saying? I want to understand... help me out.

Asare- thank you for pointing out how both man and woman can love each other because God (our Maker) gives us the power and the example.

Anonymous,I didn't say you wouldn't have a marriag...

2008-06-13T05:34:00.000-07:00

Anonymous,

I didn't say you wouldn't have a marriage. I said you wouldn't have a couple. A couple is, by definition, no more than two. If we count husband, wife, & God as part of the married couple, then we actually have a married triple.

My original point was about how the couple interacts with one another. If each person of the married couple seeks after Christ for their own good and for the good of the marriage, then your main point remains true-we as individuals need not forget how our relationship with Christ influences our relationships with each other.

Love is a two way thing that both parties must giv...

2008-06-09T14:18:00.000-07:00

Love is a two way thing that both parties must give to stay as one, else it would be a on sided affair. In all i've learnt from God i found out that the next best thing u can be given apart from the holy spirit is the AGAPE love from christ or from anyone, it give a calmness that no matter what there is someone that is ready to go through it with you and i think at one point in our lives w'll need that.Its in us all, but through christ we are able to manifest the love he showered on us when he gave his life so we might live.Men are born to love there wife just as women are if we all follow the example showed by our maker.

No Paul...you have a marriage. Remember, its God ...

2008-06-09T11:10:00.000-07:00

No Paul...you have a marriage. Remember, its God who defines marriage, not man. Recall the 1st Marriage God created in the likeness of "our" image, (God Head, 3 in 1). It wasn't Adam and Eve only in the Garden of Eden. God walked with them.

God is the Father of marriage.

The Husband as described in Ephesians 5:25 is to love his wife as CHRIST loved the church. (The Son)

Eve as described in Gen 2:18 was termed: "Helper" - a term also given to the Holy Spirit.

Seems a pretty good model for Marriage, yes?

Jonalyn, I think the statement should be, I'm committing this marriage to God and let his will be done.

Anonymous: Perhaps I'm a stickler when it comes to...

2008-06-08T08:13:00.000-07:00

Anonymous:

Perhaps I'm a stickler when it comes to the meaning of words, but if you're right that we have to include the Trinity as part of the couple, then we don't have a couple at all. We've got a triple (or a quintuple).

Amen and amen and amen. :)Thank you Jonalyn.

2008-06-08T00:51:00.000-07:00

Amen and amen and amen. :)

Thank you Jonalyn.

Paul- glad one line in particular stuck out to you...

2008-06-07T14:15:00.000-07:00

Paul- glad one line in particular stuck out to you.

Julia- yes no magic formula, like what Paul said about work and as a friend who married us said "become a scholar of one another"

Journey- a good point that often our "love" is really co-dependency and niceness

Anonymous- I like how you used the Trinity as our foundation for working to become one.

What do you think about this phrase, "I'm more committed to this marriage than to this person"?

Dramaturge- in what general ways have you seen men need more respect and women need more love?

Jennifer- good to hear your voice on here

Quiara- glad you took the time to visit and comment. I welcome your upcoming thoughts!

Thank you for saying something I've been dying to ...

2008-06-06T16:17:00.000-07:00

Thank you for saying something I've been dying to accurately articulate for quite some time: women and men, by virtue of being human and being equal, have many of the same wants and needs in life and relationship. It does not mean there are not differences; it means that there is commonality of humanity, though, and that must be respected and nurtured.

Thanks again. I had never seen your blog until I followed a link from CT. I have a feeling I will become a regular reader.

Jonalyn,Interesting article. I don't know how many...

2008-06-06T05:54:00.000-07:00

Jonalyn,

Interesting article. I don't know how many times I have said that I need respect, too! To be honest with you I have never read the book you mentioned in your article and I'm sure it's good. But, I feel the same way as you do. Yes, my husband needs respect, but so do I. Yes, I need love, but so does my husband. Enough said.

Have a wonderful day!

Jennifer Barker

men’s love and women’s respect is a first step in ...

2008-06-04T14:42:00.000-07:00

men’s love and women’s respect is a first step in marriage, but it cannot be the last.

Very true. I think truly loving another person is never natural. Even pagans realize that it takes work...it takes putting that other person before yourself and learning how they need to be loved. That isn't natural for sinful humans. Perhaps affection comes more naturally, and adaptation comes more naturally for the average female, but love is hard work for both parties. I think perhaps the overlooked reasoning behind Paul's comment has more to do with what men and women generally need to see more. Men generally need to feel respected, and women generally need to feel loved. Not that it doesn't work both ways, but like you said....it's the first step, the foundation for all the other steps that go into making a marriage a true union.

"Married couples are comprised of two individual p...

2008-06-04T13:10:00.000-07:00

"Married couples are comprised of two individual people, who both must work to become one."

Kinda true...a biblical model of marriage should not be "two" individuals...as it should take the model of the Trinity and include God first...If husbands and wifes would focus 1st on their personal relationship with Jesus, then their marriage will be blessed.

I know...too simple, but this is just a comment section.

it's fun discovering how unloving we are! (rolls e...

2008-06-04T10:54:00.000-07:00

it's fun discovering how unloving we are! (rolls eyes) I thought I was a loving person...it turned out to be merely co-dependency and "niceness" ;) ... it's sick how bad we are at the one thing Christ has asked of us..

I totally agree about the love and respect thing b...

2008-06-04T07:43:00.000-07:00

I totally agree about the love and respect thing being for men and women. Whenever I hear about these fad marriage books claiming to have the answer I always ask my husband about them. "Babe, would you rather I love you more or respect you more?" I just want to see what he'll say. He said Love. That doesn't mean I won't respect him, it just means that there's no magic formula. I treat him the way I want to be treated...most of the time. And I want love and respect and a whole long list of other things.

And thank you for bringing up the topic of submission. Most people don't know about the second usage not being in the greek (in Ephesians). We need to submit to each other AND love each other in marriage.

Great article!

"but it is not acceptable in a marriage where two ...

2008-06-04T04:26:00.000-07:00

"but it is not acceptable in a marriage where two are working to become one."

I don't know why, but I just love the sound of that. Becoming one isn't some magical thing that happens just because of a ceremony in a church (or just because of the bedroom activities after the ceremony). Married couples are comprised of two individual people, who both must work to become one. I am glad that it takes work for this to happen because we tend to value things more when we work for them. It seems the same would be true in marriage.

And the beautiful thing about this is that, somehow, it actually begins to happen. When two people love and respect one another, they can become one.

Great article Jonalyn!