Comments on Jonalyn Grace Fincher: Lust- Alive and Well Among Women- Part II

Fascinating comment by Dr. Roots, although I wonde...

2009-09-10T09:21:34.193-07:00

Fascinating comment by Dr. Roots, although I wonder how the "predatory" distinction applies to lust/desire not enacted w/in relationship (however distant)--i.e., fantasy life involving both real and unreal characters. With the real ones, it could be said they are being used, but with the others.... I doubt all such desire dwelt on or even most is spiritually healthy, although we will surely have desires. Perhaps the key is the "self-referential" and "utilitarian." But then on the other hand, at least fleeting glimpses of "self-referential" are probably just part of the package of even rather well-trained sexual desire, maybe especially when not in relationship w/ ann other to focus upon? For we are learning others/ conceiving of others via ourselves as our bodies sexually mature. Just thoughts and questions.

This comment taken from an email response I receiv...

2009-09-09T12:38:30.627-07:00

This comment taken from an email response I received from this post from Dr. Jerry Root and pasted here with his permission. I think you'll find his distinctions between lust and sexual desire particularly helpful!

Good article. I do think--as in everything--there is more yet to be explored. We get sure words at times but never last words. Your words are definitely sure (and helpful). I do think, also, there is a profound distinction that must be made in our definitions between lust and sexual desire.

Lust is predatory; sexual desire is normative. Sexual desire among many of the college students I work with is confused with lust and it makes me sad when I see college students beating themselves up for being normal. I do believe, in the Church, much of the confusion grows out of and embedded [no pun intended] in Gnosticism; and from the world's intrusive Materialism.

Your story about trying to catch the eye of the good-looking guy in the restaurant was spot on. It was an attempt to see where it might go if he perceived your interest. Thus it was a predatory act.

My guess is you had no end in mind for sexual gratification, but if you lusted after the attention and you threw him a come-on look to see if he was interested. You were still using him for self gratification.

To invite Jesus into that moment and discover the man's humanity in the process is the right way to go. I was very impressed and helped by the image of bringing Christ into the situation.

Lust is definitely self-referential and utilitarian. It denies the humanity of another. The Incarnate Christ who took on humanity will always, properly, humanize. Perhaps this idea could be extended.

I appreciated the insights and am grateful to you for the article.

There are other areas to consider relative to the place visuals play in the realms of beauty and arousal. For example the Bible itself supplies plenty of imaginative visuals. Men are told to enjoy the breasts of the wife of their youth. Its hard to read that and not think about breasts. The multiple passages about circumcision cannot be read without thinking of a penis. Solomon 4 will not allow one to escape without imagining two people love-making. And the passages of Er and Onan ejaculating their "seed" on the ground to deny Tamar any offspring provide plenty for imaginative visuals. Let alone Judah, Jesus Great, great, great... grandfather sleeping with Tamar to produce the lineage of Christ.

--Jerry

oh, that was me (deborah). i think i forgot to si...

2009-09-02T20:34:09.571-07:00

oh, that was me (deborah). i think i forgot to sign off on my last post.

yes on all madame praised and what she added....

2009-09-02T19:44:13.270-07:00

yes on all madame praised and what she added....

Thanks also for explaining a bit about what arouse...

2009-08-29T14:19:00.638-07:00

Thanks also for explaining a bit about what arouses men and women. I've always found it interesting how I'm definitely attracted to men, but I find a scantly-clad, attractive woman's body more beautiful than an attractive man's scantly-clad body. Even with my husband, good looking as he is, I find him more attractive when he's got clothes on!

I've also found that the way a man treats me can be arousing. A man who is kind, gentle, respectful, gives me his full attention, etc.. can awaken involuntary feelings in me, like a bond.
Also, a man who treats me kindly and touches me (not sexually) can immediately cause a reaction of arousal.

I really don't know what the solution is, if any. LIke you, I find that I don't react similarly to people I know well.
I don't like rules and prohibitions, like not getting in a car alone with a male who isn't my husband, or not meeting a man on my own. Life happens, and we find ourselves in situations where we need to choose whether we will entertain the thoughts or feelings, or whether we will give them to Jesus. Jesus spent time with women, he just saw them for who they were and didn't lust after their bodies.

Thanks for a refreshing approach to lust, what causes it, and what we can do about it.

Jonalyn, I appreciated this post very much. Thanks...

2009-08-29T14:05:11.338-07:00

Jonalyn,
I appreciated this post very much. Thanks for writing it!
It's very timely too, as I just took part in a discussion on Christianity Today's blog "Gifted for leadership". The post, "what not to wear" was encouraging women in leadership to dress modestly.

These two paragraphs sum up how we ought to see each other.

I do not struggle with lusting after my family members, nor those who I clearly see in familial roles to me. I see them as friends, members of my family and therefore easily respect them. In that moment, after uttering a prayer, Jesus came into my lust and reformed my eyes to see the man as a human, made in God's image.

My desire for him as an object to possess melted and I saw him as someone worthy of my respect. I know I could have bumped into him later and not been afraid to look at him.

If church is a family, then we should see each other as family members, not as bodies to lust after and that need to be covered head to toe.

Thanks for sharing about inviting Jesus into the equation. YOu're so right! If we see people through his eyes, the way only He can enable us to, then we stop seeing them as objects and see them as the image bearers of God that they are!

There was even talk of not allowing good looking women (worldly standards) from preaching from the pulpit because men would be distracted and not concentrate on the message. But what about us poor women who have to struggle with our natural attraction to that gorgeous pastor? (hubby is a very good looking pastor :-) )

Jonalyn, What a wonderful follow-up! I've wonde...

2009-08-28T16:33:08.839-07:00

Jonalyn,

What a wonderful follow-up! I've wondered, really ever since a period of intense lust struggles that I went through, about how much of women's lust (and/or men's) is a lust for the power to captivate another (or simply power). I was so interested to read the study you brought up, although I've not yet read the NYT article. Random comments women made back in college had me wondering how normative it is among hetero women to be turned on by very attractive women (not necessarily as to lust after them but to have their lusts aroused) and why... or if it was due to the blurring of gender desires in culture. I did not know there was a study. This is also helpful for those who are a little confused by this and wondering if they have some bi- leanings.

And thanks for appreciating my little comment (although it is no longer the last comment in that thread, more like 2/3 of the way through the comments) about the complexity of our lust. I completely agree that holding onto a roll in the sheets to meet those various ideas and needs is much easier to conceive than the multi-faceted real relationship provides and that this has something to do with the temptation to have affairs.

I also love what you have to say about knowing and being aware of yourself and its desires and conveying that "nakedly" as being part of the true giving of oneself (the truest loving of the other). I've marveled before at how much some husbands I know miss out on through their selfish sex--how much more fulfilled they would actually be on every level if they didn't simply use and take (I do know some women who cried through their honeymoons w/ little to no improvement years later). And the idea that this is actually a good lot for women to submit to is twisted (apart from the whole complementarian/egal debate).

As usual, much to chew, and your vulnerability is appreciated.

Thanks,
Deb

Luke, Good podcast. Thanks for the link. I appr...

2009-08-28T12:36:13.497-07:00

Luke,

Good podcast. Thanks for the link.

I appreciated how the women confessed to feeling convinced they were the only women in the world who struggled with porn. They thought porn was only created for men. They both feared that since they were attracted to porn that they were lesbians.

Finding out they were not alone allowed them to begin to break free.

I recommend you read and check up their websites.

Thanks for the thoughts here. Thorough look at the...

2009-08-28T09:11:42.692-07:00

Thanks for the thoughts here. Thorough look at the topic, for sure.

You might like these podcast interviews we did a while back with some women who have struggled with porn addiction. They say some very interesting things about how it is a growing problem in our culture.

http://www.covenanteyes.com/blog/2009/08/17/podcast-porn-addiction-among-women-part-1/

Jonalyn, Love this post. I like the "covet" langua...

2009-08-26T18:46:18.747-07:00

Jonalyn,
Love this post. I like the "covet" language more than "lust" because it applies much more to relationships. I kept thinking about how women (including myself) can often covet men even when sex is nowhere near the relationship. Women do covet attention from men. I see it played out in business, ministry, friendships, and dating relationships. Thanks for your words and exhortation.
Anna
P.S. Please post more often. :)