Comments on Jonalyn Grace Fincher: A Weekend with Messianic Jews

Hi JonalynI was not thinking specifically of Malac...

2009-02-13T00:25:00.000-08:00

Hi Jonalyn
I was not thinking specifically of Malachi chapter 1 or Romans 9.

I was thinking of the many passages in the Psalms where we are told God hates evil people.

Or the passage in Proverbs chapter 6 where we are told what God hates. After being told God hates a proud look and a lying tongue, the climax is "and he who sows discord among brethren."

I was also thinking of our Lord Jesus' comments that things people highly prize are detestable to God. I think the implication is that we should love the things God loves and hate the things God hates.

People say that God hates sin but loves the sinner, but the Bible tells us God hates the sinner, too.

Paradoxically, the Bible also tells us God loves us so much he sent Jesus to die for us.

How can we make sense of this?

I think Don Carson does a grand job in his little book "The difficult doctrine of the love of God."

However, I also think there is truth in the comment you cited.

For example, if I hate my Christian sister because she rubs me the wrong way, I must change my ways because God loves her. And God says that if I think I love him but hate her, I'm fooling myself.

Thank you for responding to my comment.

Hello David!Thanks for chiming in.I believe you're...

2009-02-12T20:41:00.000-08:00

Hello David!

Thanks for chiming in.

I believe you're referencing the passage "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated." If so, my follow-up question is:
- Perhaps this passage is talking about God's choosing of the Jewish people, and his not choosing of Esau's family... not God's actual hatred of any person or people group.
-Do you believe God really hates people?
- Are we ever specifically instructed to hate others in Scripture?

I've found that most people use God as an excuse to distance themselves from people they find difficult to love... I think that's the main point of the Lamott quote. :)

G'dayInterested in this quote:You can safely assum...

2009-02-09T20:12:00.000-08:00

G'day
Interested in this quote:

You can safely assume that you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott

It sounds good, but the Scriptures clearly tell us in both Old and New Testaments to love what God loves and hate what he hates.

What fun!I got to worship with a Messianic Congreg...

2009-02-03T12:51:00.000-08:00

What fun!

I got to worship with a Messianic Congregation while in Seminary. It was part of our Worship Class. They had Davidic dancing during the music portion. They began the worship time with a shofar call (ram's horn). The sermon was from Hebrews which led us back to the OT....I really enjoyed the service!

Roger Sharp
Confident Christianity

Shalom Jonalyn! It was great to read your reflect...

2009-01-21T13:36:00.000-08:00

Shalom Jonalyn! It was great to read your reflections and emotions on the weekend here in Hotlanta! It was very special to see you and Dale absorb the richness that a contextual knowledge of Messiah's culture affords to match the contextual understanding of the Judeo-Christian foundations you already have. In other words, I enjoyed watching you enjoy the very things that make the Messianic perspective so illuminating and freeing to me.
I didn't get a chance to tell You and Dale "Thank you" for all that you shared with us this past weekend. So, thank you! the conversation we had on Saturday afternoon was the most enjoyable discussion I have had in a very long time. I love sharing with others the understanding of who Messiah is, based on scripture, and how that is reflected in the variant lifestyles God calls us to lead as they are anchored in scripture. By "sharing", I mean sharing my heart and hearing the heart of others.
Your "worldview" on the truths of God felt, to me, a perfect fit with my holistic approach to scripture. It added a lot to the way I view conversing with my youth. Loved the PEAR! Esp. Rreframing!
Anyway, totally loved getting to know you both and goof around with you between stellar conversations!
God Bless you both and your ministry!
Marc Vidito

You know, I think I've just hit on something. I t...

2009-01-21T13:21:00.000-08:00

You know, I think I've just hit on something. I think I've always been a little defensive because I've thought (assumed) that the Messianics looked down on me for being a Gentile.

Good heavens. First I'm blogging about Michelle Obama's J. Crew clothes (love them!), now this.

Hi Jonalyn. Thanks for answering my question. Ye...

2009-01-21T13:05:00.000-08:00

Hi Jonalyn. Thanks for answering my question. Yes, the church has taken Christ out of his Jewish context, sometimes on purpose, but probably because we've got so many other spiritual things to think about that we just plain forget. Now, I did hear a speaker once discuss some of those sayings of Christ that are confusing, at least for me. The speaker showed how each referred to something in the Jewish culture that his audience automatically identified with - and we would too if we just knew the context. Very interesting.

As for the religious practice aspect, I think it's human nature to want everyone to be like us and we're automatically suspicious of those who aren't. Like you said, we need to show grace to those who do things differently.

As for Jesus coming first to the Jews, well, because of the covenant, the Jews were the ones who knew about the true God. That's not to say that they're any better than we are (and I know you're not saying this). The Bible also uplifts Gentiles so that we're all equals.

Philip- nice points. I agree that Israel has not b...

2009-01-21T11:39:00.000-08:00

Philip- nice points. I agree that Israel has not been replaced by the church. While Yeshua has removed distinctions as far as our access to God (neither Jew, Greek, male, female, etc), there still exist very real differences between Jews and Gentiles just as there are differences STILL between males and females. They are not, as many would argue, differences in authority or specialness (for instance, I believe men and women's differences mean they both ought to be serving in every church office), but differences that God still honors and wants his body to notice and honor. I think God loves it when we see the distinct way he rooted himself in history as a Jews and bound himself in the earth to the Jewish people. And I believed we honor God by noticing how God chose the Jews as a means to bless the earth.

p.s. I agree that it is valuable to hold onto Jes...

2009-01-21T11:32:00.000-08:00

p.s. I agree that it is valuable to hold onto Jesus and also the festivals from your own ethnic culture. I think what bothers Messianics is that Christians tend to think God likes or expects us to celebrate Christmas when there is no Scripture endorsing this like there is the Festival of Booths or Passover or even Hannakuh (its called the Festival of Lights and even Jesus celebrated it).

This does not mean we should not practice Christmas or Easter, but I do think it means we ought to be charitable toward those who do not want to practice these holidays. And hopefully we will have grace toward those who dogmatically and legalistically push Messianic practices onto us.

"It is for freedom that Messiah has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery." Galatians 5:1

Himmifan-I think the deception of the last 2000 ye...

2009-01-21T11:28:00.000-08:00

Himmifan-
I think the deception of the last 2000 years that Barb was talking about is the Christian tendency to take Jesus out of his Jewish context and make him into our personal Jesus, be it anglo or Italian or black or asian. We tend to forget that Jesus came first to the Jew and then to the Greek and we also tend to forget that God set up a covenant with Israel that he still intends to keep. See for instance: Genesis 17:7, Isaiah 55:3 and Jeremiah 31: 31-37.

Hope this helps and is also what Barb meant!

I think most people experience Messianics in diffe...

2009-01-21T11:22:00.000-08:00

I think most people experience Messianics in different ways. I'm glad you mentioned your experience Angela (I don't see it as a Debbie Downer, I'm actually grateful for it). I think the thing that most surprised me about the Messianics I've met is that they offer so much freedom.

There has been no teasing or pressure to abide by any kosher, feasts, festival rules. They've explained, when I ask, why some practice some of these laws and have been almost scrupulous with explaining the freedom Jesus brings to them and us all.

I do think it's easy when any rules are involved to begin to lay them down as FOR ALL PEOPLE. That's what is what's really struck me as admirable about the Messianics I've known.

I think a good question to ask ourselves and then take this to Jesus is: "Why do we practice the traditions/holidays/religious rites that we do?" That is worth pondering :)

I would like to add, however, that I truly and sin...

2009-01-21T07:36:00.000-08:00

I would like to add, however, that I truly and sincerely praise God that you and Dale had this experience. I apologize for being a "Debbie Downer." I hope I didn't eclipse the discussion with my negative experience. Your experience sounds like it was wonderful. As it should be. Blessings!

This brings me back to studying under an Orthodox ...

2009-01-20T19:17:00.000-08:00

This brings me back to studying under an Orthodox Jew in college. Because of him, I really looked into the Messianic Jew movement. He was so enlightening about the Scriptures, Old and New, even though he did not believe in the New Testament. He use to say, "How can you say you want to be like Jesus when you don't even know his heritage and identity as a Jew? If you want to understand Jesus better, you need to understand the religion and culture he was in and followed." To him, it was a huge mystery why Christians neglected their own heritage.

This also reminds me of a radio broadcast I heard today. Someone called in asking about Jews and Christians, and who is considered to be Israel now. The host said that there is either Jew nor Greek in Christ and that any Christian is also Jewish in the sense of being in a covenant with God. While I see his point, I very much so disagree. As you said, Jonalyn, there is a "price" that no Christian can really fathom in a way. Being Jew means much more than having a covenant with God.

Good post! And emotional, Savannah and I both were excited when we saw the title! We've always wanted to go to a synagogue, and have toyed with the idea of converting.

Question here - what is the deception of the last ...

2009-01-20T17:46:00.000-08:00

Question here - what is the deception of the last 2000 years?

Anyway, I'm glad you all had such a great time. The anti-semitism that's been going on in the church is just plain idiotic. I'm very fortunate to come from a church culture (Methodist) that didn't have that. By the way, it was politics that killed Christ, not the Jews...

I do have one area of concern, though. A couple of years ago, I picked up in Barnes and Noble a Messianic magazine. In that magazine was an article on how bad it was that Christianity included so much from Gentile culture (Easter being based on a pagan celebration, etc.). Now, first, God made me Scots Irish (amongst others things), and I see no problems with people from non-Jewish cultures taking things from their cultures and using them to worship the one true God.

Okay, rant over.

I love reading of Dale and Jonalyn's time with Mes...

2009-01-20T15:24:00.000-08:00

I love reading of Dale and Jonalyn's time with Messianics!
It reconfirms my belief that God is doing a mighty work in these last days.... To understand our Jewish roots is like putting the missing pieces into place. Praise God for allowing us to understand His Truth on another level, and to bring us out of the deception of the last 2000 years.
You go.... Jonalyn & Dale!!!
Love you,
Barb

I was friends with a Messianic Jewish woman severa...

2009-01-20T12:58:00.000-08:00

I was friends with a Messianic Jewish woman several years ago. I was eager to learn more from her and more about her faith. However, the closer I got to her, the more pressure I felt from her to "convert" to Judaism. Sort of what the Gentile believers must have felt like in Acts 15 when the Jewish believers were putting pressure on them to be circumcised. Now, obviously, I know that not all Messianic Jewish believers feel this way, and should NOT be lumped into all one category. However, if there is any hesitation between the two groups uniting, it might be partly because of some similar experiences such as these. My relationship with this woman grew to be very stressful, when all our conversations revolved around the Sabbath, feasts, rituals, etc. Obviously, she did not celebrate Christmas, and she was very vocal that true Christians shouldn't either. Eventually, we finally grew apart when she realized that I wasn't going to become Jewish and fulfill the Law of Moses! It was very sad, because I truly loved her, and she was sort of a mother figure to me. I enjoyed learning from her. She taught me so much. I was involved in the Passover Feasts that she led at her church. I also was a part of her Messianic dance ministry. But I just felt too much pressure from her to live the way she did. And I confess that it has left me a little hesitant to get involved with any other Messianic groups.

I truly hope none of this comes across as offensive. I certainly don't intend for it to be. Just offering an explanation as to why some underlying tension may exist between the two groups. Probably lots of misunderstandings, fears, prejudices, etc.

You know, Jonalyn, I cannot for the life of me fig...

2009-01-20T11:37:00.000-08:00

You know, Jonalyn, I cannot for the life of me figure out why Christians have a hard time accepting Messianic Jews. I think it is wonderful that they have the courage to risk rejection from their fellow Jews to follow Yeshua, the one and only Messiah.

Speaking of Yeshua, I love that name. It is so beautiful!

Thank you for sharing this with us.